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  #1  
Old 08-14-2008, 01:58 AM
SteffenJ SteffenJ is offline
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Workbase data

Hello forum,

we use the third-party-tool TP-CAD to store additional data for our CAD-drawings, e.g. a short description, tags, drawing-number and so on. Now we would like to convert the stored data into a chart. The problem is: we've asked the developer "ADIsoft" of the database and the developver of the ME10-Addon which uses the database "TP-CAD". We got no reaction from both.
The database of the tool is Adimens, an old relational one. Has anybody any suggestion, how we can solve the access of the data? I've really no idea, what we can still do anymore, I've tried everthing I know:

- contact to the distributor/developer of the database
- ask for information to the interface to Adimens, may be it is possible to get access similar to SQL-interface - no reaction in forums
- tried to read out the database with an atari-emulator, because Adimens is a native Atari-software - no result, the filesystem is probaly to different

I would be happy, if anybody can give me a hint, how I can solve that.

Best regards
Steffen
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  #2  
Old 08-20-2008, 01:28 AM
SteffenJ SteffenJ is offline
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Re: Workbase data

Hello again...

has nobody an idea? The problem still exists and I see no way to solve it...

Best regards
Steffen
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  #3  
Old 08-20-2008, 07:51 AM
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clausb clausb is offline
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Re: Workbase data

I'm not sure I understand the situation, so let me restate in my own words, and please correct me where I'm wrong.
  • You store drawing-related data using TP-CAD. (Do you also store the drawings themselves using TP-CAD, or just metadata?)
  • TP-CAD uses Adimens as its underlying database.

Which version of Adimens are we talking about? The database package for good ol' Atari computers running on TOS? The version which was later ported to run on PCs under GEM? The DOS-level (?) database core Adimens-Prog?

And how do TP-CAD and Adimens communicate? Via Aditalk?

Claus (former Atari fanboy, see http://www.clausbrod.de/Atari )

PS: Related discussions: http://www.administrator.de/Adimens_Datenbank_Zugriff.html , http://www.delphipraxis.net/topic55278.html
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Last edited by clausb; 08-21-2008 at 01:13 AM.
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  #4  
Old 08-21-2008, 03:29 AM
SteffenJ SteffenJ is offline
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Re: Workbase data

Hello clausb,

thanks for your reply.

>You store drawing-related data using TP-CAD. (Do you also store the >drawings themselves using TP-CAD, or just metadata?)

No only metadata are stored in the database. The name of the drawing is a number, which is assigned to the metadata in the Adimens database.

>TP-CAD uses Adimens as its underlying database.

Yes, that's correct. TP-CAD is only the frontend of Adimens.

I don't know the version of the database, whether it is Adimens ST or somthing other. It's the windows-version.

Thanks for your links. I'll have a look to them.

Best regards
Steffen
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  #5  
Old 08-21-2008, 03:40 AM
SteffenJ SteffenJ is offline
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Re: Workbase data

Hello Claus,

is there a way to convert the windows-database to the Atari filesystem? I've running the emulator Steem with the atari-version of adimens.

Greetings
Steffen
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  #6  
Old 08-21-2008, 06:05 AM
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clausb clausb is offline
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Re: Workbase data

It's unlikely that the filesystem is not your problem. Atari used the FAT filesystem, which also was the dominant filesystem on Windows when the Windows version of Adimens was developed and sold.

It's more likely that your Windows version of Adimens simply produces files which are incompatible with the Atari version, as the Windows versions are probably newer.

Can you describe what types of files are produced (extensions, sizes etc.)? What happens if you try to load them into Adimens ST?

When you run Adimens on your PC, do you ever get to see its UI? Can you post a screenshot?

Claus
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  #7  
Old 08-21-2008, 06:21 AM
SteffenJ SteffenJ is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Workbase data

Hello Claus,

in the Atari-Version I've got the problem, that the Adimens frontend ask for another filetype, than my database-files are:
database: db2.db and db2.dbi
Atari, Steem emulated: *.inx

I've tried to rename the db2.dbi to db2.inx - without success.

In windows I've only the database and the tp-cad-server. In the directory of the server exists the subdirectory \db for the database and \bin for cygwin. There is no frontend to get access to db2.db. I thought, I can list the content with a shell-command, similar to the "type" - command in MS-DOS.

Am I on the right way or do I look into the wrong direction?

Best regards
Steffen
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  #8  
Old 08-21-2008, 08:24 AM
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clausb clausb is offline
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Re: Workbase data

Quote:
In windows I've only the database and the tp-cad-server. In the directory of the server exists the subdirectory \db for the database and \bin for cygwin. There is no frontend to get access to db2.db.
Well, there must be some kind of front-end (not necessarily visual, though), or else TP-CAD couldn't create/update those database files. It might be instructive to learn more about how TP-CAD manipulates the database.

What is Cygwin used for? As a component of TP-CAD maybe?

Quote:
Am I on the right way or do I look into the wrong direction?
What you need is code which extracts your drawing metadata from the database files and writes it in some format which can then be used as input for, say, visualization purposes.

TP-CAD most likely also reads from the database, so it must know how to read those *.db[i] files - or, more likely, at least it must be talking to some other component which understands *.db[i] files. Hence, I see three options:
  • Use TP-CAD to read data from the database. (Does TP-CAD have an API, and does this API provide database access? Can it create reports for the drawing metadata? Do you have access to TP-CAD source code? This would help to make educated guesses about what's going on internally.)
  • Bypassing TP-CAD, write some code to talk to the (Adimens) component which maintains the database files. (This requires API documentation for the component.)
  • Reverse-engineer the file formats and write your own extraction code.

BTW, how much data do you need to extract?

Claus
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  #9  
Old 08-21-2008, 10:11 PM
SteffenJ SteffenJ is offline
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Re: Workbase data

>It might be instructive to learn more about how TP-CAD manipulates the >database. What is Cygwin used for? As a component of TP-CAD maybe?

I try to find out some information about it. In the directory \CYGWIN_NT-4.0\ are some commands, which sounds interesting:

dbinfo.exe and adiadmin.exe

Unfortunately I've no syntax, how to use them. A error-message apears always, if I use them:
Code:
[main] c:\Download\Adimens\TP-Server\bin\CYGWIN_NT-4.0\dbinfo.exe 1000 (0) handle_exceptions: Exceptio
n: STATUS_ACCESS_VIOLATION
[main] dbinfo 1000 (0) handle_exceptions: Dumping stack trace to dbinfo.exe.core
I think, that has something to do with cygwin, because of the Win NT version. I'm using XP, but I've tried to exchange the cygwin1.dll to a XP version, but the same result. I don't know, which minimal version of cygwin I've to use for Win XP.

>Use TP-CAD to read data from the database. (Does TP-CAD have an API, >and does this API provide database access? Can it create reports for the >drawing metadata? Do you have access to TP-CAD source code? This >would help to make educated guesses about what's going on internally.)

That was also my first idea, to catch the data on the interface between the database and the TP-CAD server. The problem is, that I've no description of the data stream, whether it is plain text or not. I think, if could also be a binary one and then I've no chance. For example: Can I access an SQL-database without an SQL interpreter?

>Bypassing TP-CAD, write some code to talk to the (Adimens) component >which maintains the database files. (This requires API documentation for >the component.)

I hope to solve it in that way. To find a description language to access the database. There is a program "ADItalk". I hope, that is a kind of driver for the database. I'm in search of it in the internet, but I didn't find something for it - it seems to be to old...

>Reverse-engineer the file formats and write your own extraction code.

There is no way to do that, because the database-format is unknown and additionally to that it is encryptet with an password.

>BTW, how much data do you need to extract?

The size of the db is 57 MByte, only text. How many data records that are, I can not say.

The next steps I want to try is, to study cygwin and it's commands. I hope, that the database format is a common one and that I can access in that way.
Parallely I try to find ADItalk, may be that helps to solve the problem.

Thanks for your help!

Best regards
Steffen
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  #10  
Old 08-22-2008, 12:47 AM
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clausb clausb is offline
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Re: Workbase data

Those dbinfo.exe and adiadmin.exe may have explicitly been linked against very old versions of Cygwin runtime libraries, and may only run in that old runtime environment, i.e. with a very old version of Cygwin. And that old version may not work on XP at all. You could set up a virtual PC running Windows NT 4 and try your luck there.

(BTW, you might be interested in the support document at http://ap-ag.com/support/Software/DLLs_EXE.htm )

Quote:
That was also my first idea, to catch the data on the interface between the database and the TP-CAD server. The problem is, that I've no description of the data stream, whether it is plain text or not.
Maybe it's be sufficient to know how TP-CAD and ME10 exchange their data. Does TP-CAD come with any source code, such as ME10 macros?

Quote:
For example: Can I access an SQL-database without an SQL interpreter?
Hmmm... as far as I can tell, SQL standardizes the way you talk to the database, but not the format of database files. If that is true, the term "SQL-database" does not imply a standardized format, and you'll always need a database driver of some sort to get at your data in the database files.

So the answer to your question is, unfortunately: It depends.

Quote:
To find a description language to access the database. There is a program "ADItalk". I hope, that is a kind of driver for the database. I'm in search of it in the internet, but I didn't find something for it - it seems to be to old...
From what I was able to find out so far, ADItalk seems to be Adimens' equivalent of the SQL query language.

Quote:
>Reverse-engineer the file formats and write your own extraction code.

There is no way to do that, because the database-format is unknown and additionally to that it is encryptet with an password.
Well, the whole point of reverse-engineering is to uncover data in unknown formats! (There is no point in reverse-engineering known formats...) Encryption, of course, adds a little extra spice.

Anyway - you mentioned that you're producing drawing metadata of various sorts using TP-CAD. My guess is that you also have a way of retrieving those data in some way - or else there'd be no point in storing the metadata in the first place. So what do you do with those metadata? Do you ever print them, or re-associate with drawings, or produce reports which contain them?

If all other approaches fail, the idea is this: If you have a way of, say, printing reports containing your metadata, then you can intercept those reports and retrieve your data from there.
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  #11  
Old 08-22-2008, 04:27 AM
SteffenJ SteffenJ is offline
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Re: Workbase data

>From what I was able to find out so far, ADItalk seems to be Adimens' >equivalent of the SQL query language.

Where did you have seen that? Have you some more information about it?

ADIMENS 4.3f (letzte verfügbare Version)

aditool.dll
4.3.6.1
adiservr.exe
4.3.6.1
adiadmin.exe
4.3.6.1
adiaudit.exe
4.3.6.1

That's seems to be a document, which has the right direction. Have you an idea, where I can buy/download these files or ADItalk?

Greetings Steffen

btw: How did you find that document DLLs_EXE.htm? I've searched in google and other machines - but no good result...
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  #12  
Old 08-22-2008, 04:45 AM
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clausb clausb is offline
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Re: Workbase data

In fact, I'm not sure about what Aditalk is or does, and I may have gotten it all wrong. Inspired by the memory of the good ol' times, I dug up some old articles from the Atari era, and they mentioned Aditalk. One such article is online at http://www.stcarchiv.de/stm88/08_adiprog.php .

I found the support document via Google, by searching for "adiadmin.exe".

If anybody out there is still listening 8-), http://tp-cad.com/module.html seems to describe the product we're talking about. (Steffen, can you confirm this?)
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Last edited by clausb; 08-23-2008 at 09:02 AM.
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  #13  
Old 08-24-2008, 10:54 PM
SteffenJ SteffenJ is offline
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Re: Workbase data

Yes, the link describes the product we talk about.

I'm also not sure, whether ADItalk is the right interface-language to access the database. Problem is, that it is hard to find some facts to the database.
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